Professional Development

Army Dude,
Ah, yes - I am one of those risk takers who counseled frequently verbally (that is, I talked to my soldiers every day about how they were doing, their jobs, their families, their performance, etc.,) and it was indeed one of the "dirt-bags" you mentioned who used the lack of negative counseling statements to appeal their less than stellar NCOER.

I took risk by not putting our negative sessions on paper. I wanted that NCO to see that I had faith in them to turn themselves around the be the NCO they SHOULD/COULD be - that I was not out to "get" them or ruin their career.

(Moderator Comment: This post was edited in accordance with the Blog Comment Policy.)

In the end, this NCO got away with professional deriliction of duty and will probably be promoted at the next opportunity because they are in a low-density MOS and "success" is good enough.

The real travesty here is that the soldiers who served under that NCO were short-changed in their own development and that NCO is holding a spot on the MTOE that is keeping another high-speed (or at least competent) NCO from moving up. And who do I blame for this? No one but myself. I should have had the guts to put the things down on paper that would have ruined that NCO's career - but I didn't.

I learned my lesson - unfortunately at the expense of some of my enlisted troops and another NCO out there somewhere who wants a shot at a higher level of responsibility and will have to wait while a scheming oxygen-thief maintains that spot on the roster...

Sir, I think that we need to evolve and develop these types of Soldier's in the mainstream Regular Army, not punish them for failing to conform:

“Someone that’s happy with ambiguity and likes being out on his own. And doesn’t want someone drawing the box for him to stay in all the time and writing the schedule for him from dawn to dusk and all that. A fella that likes to be turned loose out and about around the world to solve problems, welcomes challenges, that type of person. Once you join us, then for the next 10 to 15 years of your formation as a Soldier in the Army, you’re going to be in small groups working independently around the world, solving your own problems. You’re set out in the wilderness somewhere, you know, in the farthest wastelands of sub-Saharan Africa to the Andes to some other place, solving a problem and you have to solve it on your own. And you have to figure out how to do it with the resources at hand. And this makes a different type of fellow.”
-MG Geoffrey Lambert (RET)

I think counseling works depending on how you conduct it. Just writing up a counseling and not discussing everything with the Soldier doesn't work. It's just another piece of paper to them and if the NCO isn't leading the way by example, it's just another wasted session. I talked to my Soldiers weekly on their job performance and development as Soldiers. When counseling them for their monthly counseling, it's a two way discussion and it's up to them to develop their own plan of action to improve themselves. Take the time with your Soldiers and you will see your affect on them, but you have to lead from the front. Yes you will make mistakes but if they see you have them in your best interest, they will follow your lead all the time. Let your Soldiers counsel you once a month or put your Soldiers in charge of a section for a couple of weeks. It's a good start for development and to gauge what tactical and technical skills your Soldiers have. In my 10 years, it's never failed me to show you have confidence in your Soldiers and counsel them as such. If you need to give them a negative one, they will understand more of the reasoning because they know what the expectations are...I think counseling works as long as there's some effort put into it.

Some if not all Soldiers will say there isn't enough time, but there is enough time to conduct a good counseling. Written document (like a green book/note pad) with key remarks when a specific Soldier did something outstanding, or caught something that no other Soldier saw, even prevented loss of life or limb. Most times Soldiers will come forward with an idea that will speed up productivity, other times they do it quietly, and the leadership has to initiate the communication to understand what they did to fix a problem no one else could.

Planning, and scheduling time, there will be days when it is slow, and days that are hectic, its those slow days when positive counseling can be done. Some leaders may say "I'm busy", or "not enough time during the day" is just a way of saying "I don't want to do it today" ,or "Its not important"

Besides written good counseling can alleviate those individuals with writing awards, or NCOER/OERs. U have bullets and info to recall from.
But in the end, it remains whether the counselor is truthful or absent minded, maybe talking with a fork tongue.(hissss)

Sir, . I've Been Trying To reenlist In The army To Go To Germany. but i've been told I Have To Wait Two Months. Sir I'm Not Flagged And Have Any Pending Action. Or Anything I Was Worder Could U Explain This To Me.

Thank You Sir

Sir, I think we need to "counsel" our NCOs about the Creed that they swore to. Mainly,

I WILL NOT USE MY GRADE OR POSITION TO ATTAIN PLEASURE, PROFIT, OR PERSONAL SAFETY

ALL SOLDIERS ARE ENTITLED TO OUTSTANDING LEADERSHIP

I KNOW MY SOLDIERS AND I WILL ALWAYS PLACE THEIR NEEDS ABOVE MY OWN

I WILL COMMUNICATE CONSISTENTLY WITH MY SOLDIERS AND NEVER LEAVE THEM UNINFORMED

ABOVE ALL: I will not compromise my integrity, nor my moral courage


This shouldn't be empty rhetoric that is rote memorized and never practiced in reality. IT SHOULD MEAN SOMETHING... We need accountability from our NCOs. NOT HYPOCRISY AND DOUBLE STANDARDS.

How are you going to have NCOs counsel lower enlisted of committing vices and transgressions that they THEMSELVES ARE COMMITTING ON A DAILY BASIS? WHETHER IT'S BEHIND CLOSED DOORS OR NOT...

My Drill Sergeants warned me about this in Basic. I had the fortune of having world-class Drill Instructors. They were everything I could ask for. And to go from that to my 10th Mountain unit was a major letdown, Sir. I guess the standard was set too high at Fort Benning.

Is it any wonder that the Army is all jacked up and stretched thin? And these deployments every other year just exacerbates the problem. So many of us have given up and lost any hope of "staying in" the ranks.

And how are we going to put the blame on Senior NCOs that already put in their retirement papers, Sir? I couldn't believe how many Senior NCOs had their retirement papers disappear conspicously at S1 before our deployment to Camp Victory. And I'm referring to G3 personnel who put their documents in well before the three-month suspense. How are they going to maintain standards when they're bitter and resentful about being forced to deploy when they had every right to retire???

If we persist with the lies, the double-speak, and the dog-and-pony show, we're going to have an all-out crisis on our hands before long. The Army's breaking down. Even the authoritarians (conservatives) and malcontents (liberals) within the ranks can find agreement in that.

We all know something is wrong here. I think we have two viable options at this stage. Either evolve or toughen up. I think the Army should either become a reflection of SF or the Marines. In any case, there needs to be an immediate overhaul. Change the uniform to Multicam, Sir and adopt a new doctrine and fighting spirit.

VERITAS AQUITAS

sir everybody wants to blame the nco's, but one of the biggest problem that we are having is that recruiters are recruiting all kind of personnel that are fit for the army. i have seen at least 20 soldiers get chapter from fort drum in the past 2 years. all these soldiers have come to fort drum straight out of basic and ait with all kind of mental issues. when the army start pressing hard on the recruiting battalions about the kind of people they recruit we may have a better armyy. I am talking from experience because i had delt with most of these soldiers in the last 2 years. hell i am still dealing with one of those soldies here in iraq still. it have been a nightmare trying to deal with a soldier that did not meet the requirements and the recruiter still enlisted that person. if we stop recruit people with mental disabilties i am sure we will have a better military service

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SIR, Why is it that certain Soldiers no manner there duty performance and appearance get away with ever they want? Well my take is they are all show and no go; meaning if "sarge" wants it done they do they always around in the spot light for the good but never the bad. Then there is the "joe" who comes in every day on time works hards complains but works as all Soldiers do complain, he does what he is told but rarely gets the schools the award or the face time. This is the warrior that goes about the day duties and responsiblilities of a warrior a Man I wan in my unit. But he steps on his crank and is noticed as the Soldier who does nothing but Sarge sees him as a Butt Kisser and kts him slide hhhmmm. Is there a double standard yes sir, unfortuanley this has happened for my 19 yrs in this mans army. To easy to let them slide leave on rear detachment keep them happy put them in the trainng room while the warrior will not go on sick call and do his honest days work for a honest days pay. Then when his time is up he will ETS of no fault of his own. Sir it all goes back to riding 1 MULE and leaving the colts in the pasture to eat and fat. Try to counsel a Soldier by the standard, the legal sysyem and the "system" all together is against you. And the Senior thing no different than private snuffy you have your likes and the ones that go against the grain. i myself want that Man that goes against the grain will screw up serve his time and carry on the way a Warrior will The guy that says yes sir I messed up punish me and lets get back to work. I do not want the Soldier that messes ups runs to EO and Jag and says they are after me and just hate me. I f we truly are proffesional E-1 thru O-10 you do your job the rewards at the end of the day your life your country and your family and also the fact you know you did the best you could. Kinda off the subject just one ole MSG venting about the whinig

Sir:

I’m an (ahem) older CWO and I’ve yet to have an effective counseling “session” from a supervisor. Oh, I’ve had some think they were counseling by filling out a DA Form 4856 and making me sign them. I’ve had some order me to initial the counseling session blocks on Part III (verification of face-to-face discussion) on the OER support form when they never took place. One of the gentlemen I worked for spent ½ hour talking at me and called it counseling (then typed up some nonsense we didn’t talk about and had me sign it).

The good ones have actual interaction with their subordinates and don’t need to rely on paperwork—these are the leaders we remember. I try and copy the good ones when dealing with my subordinates and try and council the mid-grade NCOs and officers to do the same. The majority of officers I know would be wise to emulate some of our outstanding NCOs—You know the ones: they always get their mission done, they know everything about each and every one of their soldiers, and those soldiers always seem to say Hooah, Sergeant, I’ll get right on it.

Good point 11B brought up about NCOERs. If every Post Commander gave Memos of Reprimand to the BN/BDE CDRs who failed to get NCOERs to DA, it would end in a week across the Army. Trying to catch it during out-processing is commendable, but too late for the NCO ETS’ing or PCS’ing. Like anything else, if an NCO did not get taken care of; it is because Commanders at all levels wanted it to happen (remember, if the Commander didn’t want it to happen, it wouldn’t, right?)

the idea that an NCO is required to sit down and discuss performance with his soldier is good, ive been counseled many times, by different NCO's, and theyve been productive. but there are certain times when the counseling process becomes near childish, and downright dumb. a few given examples: when a junior enlisted soldier loses his room key or his ID, a 'cookie-cutter' negative counseling is printed and read to the offending soldier, so that he or she can move forward with the process of getting a new key or ID issued. though the importance of accountability can not be stressed enough, sometimes, a negative counseling isnt what the soldier needs. furthermore, ive heard and seen some of the ways counselings lose every bit of professionalism they are meant to represent. i had a good friend in a different company have some trouble with his leadership not being very forthcoming, and not being very professional. he decided to do something about it, and asked for an investigation, this led him to be ostracized within his unit. it showed in his counselings, where he would receive good, positive, productive counselings. later, as time went on, and he began speaking out, his counselings were used against him. at one point, i believe he was told that he was a waste of time and money to the army in his counselings, though he is a good soldier, is very motivated, driven, and pulls his weight. he later informed his chain of command that he planned to marry, and he received a negative counseling for that as well. i think this is really just from the fact that he asked for help with an issue with his chain of command, which just goes to show how counselings can be positive, but can really turn against you. perhaps one of the best things about my particular NCO's, and my particular chain of command, is that they rarely counsel me. the 'end of the month' counseling becomes a 'sergeant major is coming! counsel your entire team for the past 3 months! quick!' counseling. sometimes, it does become a hassle, when i see the senior most specialist in the squad take all the junior enlisted guys into the dayroom for a little hip pocket training because the team and squad leaders are busy typing up stuff. wouldnt it be better to set aside a day to try and work out any issues we have performance wise in a review board type setting? maybe its just me, and i dont like being talked at. open dialogue should exist between the counselor, and the counselee. and i hope no one else has to deal with their leadership hating them enough to negatively counsel them for trying to get married.

I see soldiers getting counselings for not passing their PT test, yet our 1SG and commander fail theirs. I see these soldiers getting their leave denied, and promotions denied. So sir, whats happening to the higher rank senior NCO's and officers that cant pass theirs?

Sir-

Counseling sessions per the regulation? Probably not. However, counseling doesn't only occur during a formalized session with the DA form in front of you. I like to believe I spend a fair amount of time counseling my subordinates- even if they don't realize it. But if I were judged by my records keeping, I'd be accused of failing my Soldiers.

Sir,
Great question. As an 11B NCO I have never been counseled by a leader during my rating period. Each year I am given an NCOER and asked to sign if I agree. While all of my NCOER's have been well written and reflect my abilities and duties, I have never had a leader sit me down during the rating period and counsel me. In fact I am still fighting with my last unit here on Drum to give me an NCOER. I am coming up for another and will most likely have a gap that will kill my chances for promotion. I have since PCS'd to the WTU as cadre and have never gotten my last NCOER from my old unit. I signed one almost a year ago however it has since disappeared and never made it into the system. I have been told to "have your new unit do it." I even went so far as to write my own so they could just send it up for signatures...no luck or answer yet. So I would have to say that the counseling system and leadership development is fractured at best.