Bar on Post

I'm not stationed at FT. Drum but at FT. Leavenworth we have a bar in a common area that works well with zero DWI's during my time here. Like everything else in life, moderation and discipline should be practiced, especially when dealing with alchol. I'm sure a Taxi serice would be more than willing to work out a suitable contract to assist those who have had too much to drink. Overall, it is convenient to relax with a couple of drinks with fellow troopers within the unit. It does wonders for esprit de corps.

I think its a great idea but with the restrictions in having to sign into post just to go to the club who wants to do that. As a matter of fact the pennants club was a hopping cool club an spinners too back in 1991 there was no signing in an you didnt have to go in a certain gate to sign in . Why do soldiers go off base maybe because the female population do not have the way to get on post like we did in my day .. Those clubs were always packed to the max it was 18 an up . When i came back to drum so much had changed lif on post is boring so the soldiers go off base an in turn there are many more dwi's than ever ..

Sir,
I am not military but work in the hospitality field. If there were a on post bar, I think your one poster is correct, you need someone not from watertown to run it and successfully promote it. I have lived here for two years and have heard from many gi's and their wives what they would like to see as far as a bar club goes. If you would be willing to listen to some ideas I would be glad to help you as this is what I did in the Saratoga/Albany area.

Sir,

I'm prior Air Force. When I was stationed at Ellworth AFB. The command had a program for the Airman. Called Airman against drunk driving. The idea was to have 5-6 Airman on call on saturday and friday nights, to go out and pick up people who were under the influance. These Airman would be given friday off of work, and it would rotate who was on call and which weekends they would work. This also help them put in hours for the volunteer ribbon. They would use there own vechicle, but the cell phone was provided by the base. Also there was no cover charge for the use for AADD. This program drastically dropped the number of DUI's at Ellsworth. It would be nice to see a program such as this set up at Ft. Drum. Soldiers keeping Soldiers safe.

I have been stationed at other posts that the state legal drinking age was 21. Yet at those posts a soldier could drink "on post" at 18. I support the suggestion of opening up the clubs on post rather than sending all our soldiers to Canada to drink. Or getting caught for underage drinking off post. Besides if your old enough to die for this great nation you should be able to drink to it! And the clubs are close enough to the new billeting that a soldier can walk back to the barracks.

(Moderator Comment: Soldiers cannot legally purchase or possess alcohol "on post" at 18. The legal age for alcohol in the USA is 21 years old. The National Minimum Drinking Age Act of 1984 required all states to raise their minimum purchase and public possession of alcohol age to 21. That is the law.)

It's really simple, people at the age of 21 or 22 are going to drink, and single guys are going to go where single women are and vice versa, so build a ride system for G.I.'s because you can call a cab any night of the week in Jefferson County and not get one.

Most things in the Army are geared towards men. But if you want things to sell, you have to look at your audience. It is not only men on post. Therefore the bar should be geared towards women and their husbands, not just single Soldiers. The bar should be nice and classy, but not so hoity toity that it is boring. It should not have the attitude or atmosphere that "I am married so I can only attend FGR meetings and not have any fun." But the attitude that, "I can go out and have fun with my husband or wife."

Thanks for all the feedback. Some points to consider:

- Before 9/11 we had an open post. Opening a bar on post will not make it easier to get civilian singles on post due to our security checks so I doubt Soldiers will come.
- The Air Force subsidizes their club system - the Army does not any longer. Before the 1990s the Army bars always lost money in the US or just broke even - but the Army used to cover the losses - we cannot do that now. Overseas the slot machines pay for losses on drinks.
- We have a very decent bar on post already but it has low patronage. I suspect it is because there are few if any single women?
- I still believe that if a Soldier has the ability and money to plan to drink downtown - he has the ability and money to secure a taxi back to post to avoid DWI.

Thoughts???

Putting the bars back on post is just going to give soldiers the feeling that "they dont have that far to drive" outlook. Instead of driving from watertown back to the barracks drunk, now all they will have to do is go from the bar on post to the barracks. They are going to do it just because they think they can get away with it. I wouldnt change anything or do anything special for soldiers that make the decision to drive drunk. They make the decision, so they can live with the punishments.

In 1999 and 2000 my girlfriends and I would go to spinners almost every Saturday. We had a blast and made some great friends. It was nice to get away from the high school population and have a mature conversation, and a good time with guys from different places. I think opening the clubs back up on post would be a great idea. It would give everyone more options then going to the bars in watertown. Ive been to the dome one time and don't care to go back. I remember having alot more fun at spinners.

As for the DWI issue try doing bus runs for the guys and girls that are army personnel. This will save on the DWI's specially if they feel they have more options.

I personally used to frequent the club on post (Pennants)years ago when there was open access to post. We always had a great time. Yes, there were fights here and there, and there were also DWI's. I liked going because it was a more upscale place compared to what was offered in town and of course...the boys! lol. However, I think that we all have to keep in mind that these wars have taken serious tolls on families and our men and women in uniform. I can't begin to imagine the trauma they experience when deployed...especially since most of Drum has been deployed in either war 2plus times. So many of our awesome soldiers are so very young and I don't think any amount of training can really prepare you for what most have encountered. The effects mentally and emotionally are obviously showing up when they return including the seasoned soldiers. Their sacrifices are quickly overlooked when they misbehave. I am not in any way condoning their behaviors, but we need to remember where they've been. There's always a way to help make things better...Always. It's just a matter of people joining together in a team effort. Without Fort Drum this area, my hometown, would be a ghost town. I'm proud of our soldiers, even those who screw up time to time...cause God knows they've been through some crap I will never have to experience...

It seems to me that if this was a good idea The Commons would stay open later. They have everything these people are suggesting and then some; dining, a micro-brewery, somewhat of a sports bar, and they are open to everyone that comes onto post. There must be a reason they close early. Could it be no customer base to justify late hours?
And as I mentioned in the DWI blog people are going to drink and drive. Does it help that it's closer? No. Distance correlates to "exposure" time. A shorter driving distance is merely a shorter time driving under the influence. The majority of individuals driving to an establishment whose sole purpose is to serve alcohol are going to leave with their vehicle. As many DWI's as we read about, the scary thing is most offenders don't get caught.
I truly believe that we as a post can remedy most of the problem in several ways. First is training. Look at the mandatory quarterly training soldiers have, why not incorporate a thorough DWI block of information? Inform individuals of the actual costs, risks, and effects of alcohol consumption and driving. Delve deeper into the realm than some 1SG or CPT saying don't drink and drive for a weekend safety brief. Second, enlist volunteers for a ride home program. Soldiers (for the most part) look out for one another and many don't drink and would be happy to volunteer. A good ride home program would entail two individuals going to retrieve the caller/s allowing one to drive the caller's vehicle back while the other follows to monitor the safety of the other volunteer. The system works great and as people use it word spreads. Third, work with the cab companies to get them to accept some sort of "ride home coupon" that can be reimbursed by the soldiers brigade staff duty or the individual at a later date. All that is left is to supply the soldier with the card.
LOL, I apologize, I got totally off topic but I'm confident these ideas can help.

Eric has it right, if you open a club make it a well run upscale establishment that has policies and procedures in place to insure a fun and safe club. I've managed nightclubs in Los Angeles, both country western and top forty and it's hard work to keep control of your club but well worth it and necessary or before you know it you've lost control and that's when the problems begin!!!

A club/bar on post would be a good idea. It would be even better if there was a free shuttle to get people back to their barracks!

It will just be more DWI's for civilians driving home from that bar ,also it at least would maybe make less the problems at city bars if most the military people hang out there on post.

I am a civilian worker here on Ft. Drum and i have people/soldiers asking all the time if there are any on-post shuttle services or taxi's. I think Ft. Drum would benefit from this service greatly. It makes it very difficult for those who don't have vehicles to get a taxi, that is located off post, to come pick them up and take them across post or just somewhere near by. I hear a lot of these soldiers or family memebers end up losing out on important things such as appointments. Ft. Drum has pretty much everything here for their soldiers except transportation. I think this should be reviewed very carefully.

Dear Sir,

It is my opinion that opening a bar on post is merely putting a band-aid on the DWI problem. Unless, the bar is within walking distance for everyone, many people will have the mentality that, "I only have to drive around the corner", and the drunk driving will continue. What do you do when a soldier meets a nice young lady that lives off post? Do we support him taking her back to his barracks room because it is close and convenient or should he then decide he would rather drive off post to her place? A bar on post may be profitable but it won't come without assorted incidences and will be a bigger headache than the problem at hand. I agree with the individual who suggested that Ft. Drum should come up with alternative activities. If you want to make a change I would start by moving BOSS to a more central and bigger location. If you utilize the resources you already have, you may find the problem goes away on its own.

I don't know if a bar on post would work unless you filled it with people of the opposite gender of the majority of the patrons. You may not want that quality of opposite gender coming on post every weekend. It's getting rid of the mice problem by buying a bunch of cats. You now have a feral cat problem. I recommend each unit putting two people on a drunk driving post on weekend nights. Soldiers can call if they've had too much to drink. The two soldiers on post can pick up the drunks as well as drive there vehicle home.

Well I am not sure if it will stop DWI all togther, but if there is a place for the guys and gals to go to on post it may limit the amount Of DWI. Ft Drum in my experiance is a nice post and has much to offer, but opening back up the clubs may be a good thing. What do you got to loose SIR open it up test it our for a few months if it does not work then shut them down...I think you may be suprised. One more thing is to make sure that you open it up somehow for the public would be more benifical too... Also to stop your DUI/DWI issues start kicking the bad ones out of the army, seriously that just makes people do it more as no one holds them to the true army values they signed up for....

Many people indicated on my blog post about DWI issues that they favoured a bar on post. It's been tried and hasn't exactly worked in the past. How do we make it work and how many of you would actually use. I have strong feelings on both having and not having a bar on post. I have been on this post for 13 years. I use to go to Spinners and Pennants. So, what I say is from personal experience.
When we had civilians coming to the bar, was a plus. You saw different people, and kept the place alive. Brought in a lot of money for the post. I would like to see a bus schedule made up so that at certain times the Soldiers could get on it and be dropped off at a designated location. Such as the off post housing route. It goes by all the units on post. But then we come to the fact of who would drive the bus. Their plenty of Soldiers on post with bus driver license, or you could contract it out to make more jobs for civilians. Because of now the TMP has busses but not in all that good shape.
I believe that you should build a club that is up to date as some in other states. Could it work and be profitable? YES, only if you take what everyone here has said. Do some research, and put some planning into it. Would I attend? NO, but I believe that the Soldiers deserve it.

(Moderator Comment: This post has been edited to adhere to the blog comment policy)

We just PCSed from Ft.Riley, KS and they have a free bus service that is run by the soldiers. Ft. Riley is located by Kansas State University(Aggieville - major bar area) and the buses have certain drop-off and pick-up times on post and in town. It would take soliders and their spouses too.

Sir, perhaps the answer is not as hard as some would make it. Granted, a bar on-post would be a deterrant to civilians because of the checking in at the front gate, most would probably not want to go through that vs a civilian establishment. Maybe a bar/club right outside one of the main gates, like the one by pizza hut(great location). The plus to that is the MP's or whoever could make an occational stop-in every so often that would not be out of their way. The staff duty would have to drive only five to ten minutes to pick anyone up. Plus any Soldier with two feet could walk right in the front gate from there if they had to(I did it more times than I can remember in Germany). I remember in Germany if the mp's saw you walking in the gates at 0300, 99% of the time, they would give you a ride to the barracks. Plus if you leave your car there, you don't have very far to go to get it the next morning. An establishment needs to be diverse and big enough so you don't see the same folks all night. Maybe an establishment with multiple sections, hard rock, R&B, country, whatever. From experience, these types of establishments are very sucessful. Our troops do the greatest job in the world so instead of concentrating on how "bad" some of them are, lets reward them for a job well done.

Recent stories indicate that the Army has experienced a 25 % increase in substance abuse referrals and a 38 % vacancy rate for ASAP counseling positions. Drinking and driving is only one of the many indicators that a soldier is in trouble with alcohol. I think the critical issue is what cultural message you want to send to the soldiers and community.Some soldiers seem to arrive to the Army looking for external control to try and master a problem they had in civilian life. Others seem to feel that heavy binge drinking is the " norm " and not an issue unless you have a reportable incident or a DWI offense.Or they begin heavy drinking as a maladaptive means to try and cope with anxiety,depression, or PTSD . I would encourage the command to have an open dialogue about how unit level officers view a " drinking problem " as it seems to vary individually. In the civilian world we addressed this by developing an algorithm to have consistency in determining what type of help an individual needs. Certainly I feel that when a soldier commits a drinking offense in the community that he or she should not just be given extra duty on post, but be required to volunteer in a civilian arena where they would be exposed to those whom have made the same type of choices and are paying back an amend to the community such as in the Bridge program. I am not opposed to seeing a bar established on post, but feel that is not the primary issue .I have read articles looking at the requirement for a command referral for substance abuse and thoughts about removing the command requirement to encourage more soldiers to come forward voluntarily. The effects on alcohol on the frontal lobe include putting judgement and inhibition to sleep and if you look at some of the high BAC's these soldiers are registering; it is clear that there is no real system in place to interrupt the heavy drinking. I feel ashamed that our civilian community has taken advantage of impaired soldiers by continuing to serve alcohol long after the soldier has become intoxicated. Would you have any better opportunity to " cut off " a soldier at a bar on base ? I truly believe until the unit and above miltary command come to a consistent approach to drinking and other substance issues in the Army you are going to have units turning a blind eye to heavy binge drinking and inconsistency in how unit level leaders treat soldiers whom are involved in substance abuse counseling. What I am really saying is that beyond trying to reduce the occurence of DWI the larger picture remains and needs the focused attention of re-establishing acceptable norms,promoting substance abuse counseling as a positive versus a negative event and developing an answer to the command referral process inconsistencies.

You could not have said it better Thanks for also seeing the real prob

I think the idea is at least worth a try. I remember "closing time" at these clubs when they were still open. When we were on Staff Duty, we would head on over to the club and try to ensure that everything went smoothly. I believe that we should post an NCO or an MP at the club in similar fashion to the "safety officers" that most high schools now retain. The physical presence of an authority figure alone may help. MWR may even be capable of providing a van for rides home on base.

It's always been a staple of any military installation to have an officer or enlisted club that serves spirits and is high on traditional entertainment. I left the army after 8 years and am now in the Air Force. I went to spinners and pennants. I saw that spinners was a white crowd and pennants was a black crowd. They segregated in a manner that doesn't promote unity. If you are to open a bar, know that what was happening when it was here will continue when it is back. P.S. A drunk driver will still drive drunk. The only difference is how far they will have to go to be home. Post is much closer unless they live outside of garrison. If a bar is to be opened it must be policed heavy and promote an "all are welcome" atmosphere.

Somebody brought up a good point about the Commons. Back in '98 the Commons had a different setup than it currently does. On Friday nights you could go to the Sport side, then you had the resturant where the brew pub is now, then you had Benways and then there was usually the action in the ballrooms too. By the time I left there in 2004 all that was left was the Sports bar and the brew pub.

People are just too lazy anymore to make an effort but if there was a classy, well run establishment people would flock to it. That's what is missing, a classy joint. Not another Spinners or Strand, or Mardi Gras. A place with a dress code for both customers and employees. A beautiful, well lit bar so you can see everything they have to offer. Plush seating and some tables and chairs too. The music shouldn't be so lod that you have to shout to be heard. Maybe once a week or twice a month you have a live band. The band has to follow the dress code too or they are gonna look and feel outta place. If this kind of place opens you'll give the soldiers a great place to relax and feel good about themselves. Most people like to get dressed up and I know many women who like to get all dressed up for a night out. Why can't it be on Ft Drum and MWR makes a few bucks on the side too! You could have every unit provide their vans and drivers to be there on Fri. and Sat. nights at a certain time as a free taxi to anywhere on post. They could start the shuttle duty at 10pm and run it til everyone is gone who needs a ride. So figuring four hours and however many units have a duty van you could have three vans available per hour if you ran it in shifts.

The Old Man asked how to make it work and if it would be used.
Yes it will be used. The next thing is how to make it work to turn a profit.

The Leadership from top down need to "impress" upon the individual units that they need to "encourage" the soldiers to go there. Then the Staff Duties need to be making Shuttle runs constantly. Staff Duties have enough people to draw upon who are pulling extra duty, and even at that, the point is: Provide enough transportation that is standing by on call when the troops leave, that they have no excuse to get behind a wheel. Encourage the Cab companies to hang out there. Provide a shuttle run from the club to a central location in Watertown ( drop offs at the Downtown Square, or a few other locations ) for a nominal fee to offset the price of running it.

For too long, we have run a military that tried to impose a morality on its troops that denied the actual reality of how we live. Yes we drink from time to time. Yes we use tobacco. Yes we cuss. Get over it-- that is our world, and that is our choice. We choose to fight for Americans and to allow them the ability to Choose and keep those rights.

Troops will drink. Troops will drink. They see enough as it is, that alcohol should be accessible to them. It has its place. If they abuse it, then again troops should have LEADERS who are putting their nose in thier lives enough that they can see this. If this occurs: Send them to ADACP ( or whatever its called now).

But provide ways for civilians to get on post to the Club. Provide transportation to the troops from Club to the barracks or Club to a central point in Watertown to drop off. Then tell the Units leaders to encourage the use of this club.. make it competitive against the other clubs.. make it a club troops want to go to, drink, relax, meet a local girl. This will stop them from driving to Syracuse or Watetown.

Open up a hookah bar on post.. Wow, we sure loved them in Baghdad. Thats a happening thing now.. Exploit this financially , and keep it on post.

And when the Moral majority comes out screaming, tell them to go elsewhere. Tell them you are taking a pragmatic approach to keeping your troops alive. Tell them that unless they want to share the burden of writing letters "after the fact", then they need to "move out, draw fire, and shut up"

Thats HOW. And Yes. I would support it.

as of right now, the drinkers have to worry about getting back on post if they wish to drive.

with a bar/club on post they have less to worry about.

i dont think the problem is accomidating the idiots who choose to drink and drive. they will do it reguardless of where they can drink. if jefferson county was a dry county we would get idiots who try to drink and drive from lewis county.

i wouldnt open anything on post. let those who feel that they need to go drink in large crowds for recreation do it in watertown, so i dont have to worry if my wife needs to go get milk on a fri or sat night while im deployed or in the field and getting hit by a drunk driver.

the chances are slimmer when they have to worry about getting through the gate.

I guess you have to figure out what your goal is. If you want to have more DA Civilian and Military Police involvement in regards to illegal activity with our Soldiers, then having a bar on post is the best option. If you want our Soldiers to behave themselves and not act like a bunch of fools, well there are so many components of that thought process that change in that area would require reinstallation of Disciplinary Barracks. In regards to allowing civilians on post in order to go to a bar, there are ways of doing this securely. Badge/ID exchange system like that at Fort Richardson will do well.

Another separate thought though is what ever happened to the notion of having other activities for our Soldiers to do. We have some of the most premier hunting and fishing in the WORLD right here on Fort Drum and in my opinion it is an untapped resource. For example, why is it that a Soldier has to go to MWR to rent a boat and bring it somewhere to fish when we have our own trophy fishery (Indian Lake) with no MWR facility on the shore? That will keep a young Soldier busy having a great day with friends and loved ones with plenty of opportunity to engage in something other than killing brain cells. ATV/Snowmobile Trails, Ice Fishing, Trap, Skeet, organized Bird Hunting, the possibilities are endless and it keeps the Soldiers busy.

Sir, i joined the Marines in 1981 and we always had an E Club on base. Most times we would't have to venture off base for a few beers and some fun, and we would walk to it. Also look at the weather up here, most people are not used to driving in it. It kills me that we have battle hardened troops that are being busted for DWI's when they are in homeport. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. There should be a free bus or duty driver to pick these people up when they need a ride. thank you for your attention. r/s EO1 Gray

I am currently here at Ft Benning where we have one bar on the far side of post.It's a small brew pub at that, not the number of bars that we had on Drum during my there between 98-04. I remember walking from the barracks to Spinners and the Commons. Great times. Didn't have to leave post to have a drink with friends or meet some women. Is Ft Drum totally closed off to civilians? Here at Ft Benning if you have the correct paperwork for your vehicle and a photo id you can get on post. It's not that way at Drum? Why not? Then if you aren't going to bring back the bars what are your plans for those buildings? You should put a real resturant back on post, give it a dress code and give the post a nice place for any family or couple on a date a nice place to relax and eat.

I was an MP at Fort Drum from 96-01, and very aware of Spinners and Penants. Was there fights? Ya just like any other bar, Penants much more then Spinners. However, off post police agencies were not called in to help us cover. We had more then enough officers on duty to assist with any problem that arose. Also when we showed up(MP/DOD) the soldiers respected our authorities more because we were all affiliated with the Army. Knowing that if they got on trouble on base there was no way getting around command finding out. The person that mentioned the commons, I dont know what it is like now but before there was just one bar and it was a sports bar. As far as drug trafficking, I dont think that is going to happen. No one can change that Drum is a closed base, they are just going to have to make it easier for others to get on post. Not very often is a drug dealer willing to go through a check point onto a federal installation. As far as the one person asking for no shady chics, LOL...I have never seen a prostitute during my time in Watertown...maybe in Syracuse or Canada but not Watertown. AS far as the type of girls, you must realize this, as much as you dont want trailer trash, there are girls there that do not want to date GI's... So you just gotta be smart@!Believe it or not 75% of the girls there dont want to date a soldier.

I have been stationed here since 2000, never left except to deploy. As for spinners and penants being closed, nothing has changed. You still have the dwi's and the fights. They just moved to the strand which is now closed, now you have pr's and all the other dumps in this town. Look at it this way, the bars on or off post will have the same aura about them. Party time, fights, dui's. Opening the bars back on post won't change how soldiers conduct themselves. All the safety briefs will not get these few idiots to act like adults. It all falls on personal responsibility.

My husband was also a soilder on Fort Drum for eight years. I believe that it was great to have a bar on post and open to the public. Whenever we wanted to get out for the weekend we went to spinners or to pennants. These bars were always packed and had great crowds. I do not remember the soilders having as many conflicts at these bars as there is downtown now. Plus a cab on base in only five dollars, alot cheaper than a DWI, or DWAI. My husband is now out of the service, but if these bars were to open, we would be interested in going back to them.

I think that having a bar on post would be great. Myself being was one that got a dwi I am ashamed. I would rather be on base where I always have a ride, and my wife is close by to pick em up.. I think that the base would benefit from it greatly.

I feel it may be worth while to look into on-post clubs given the over all situation. The biggest hurdle would be Ft Drum being essentially a closed post now. Pre-9/11, civilians could come on post and frequent the clubs with military. Unless this can happen again, single soldiers will go elsewhere in search of companionship, be it syracuse or where ever. If this option is pursued, attempts to bring local entertainment such as bands etc. to enhance it's attraction should be considered. Door prizes, specials, etc. should be incorporated to attract the singles crowd as this is your main draw plus family nights. Maybe a courtesy van could be organized using 1 or 2 tmp vans and rotation among the units for drivers on friday/saturday nights to give soldiers rides back to the barracks on post if cab fares is an issue.

Being retired for the US Navy, I can say that most Navy bases had what would be similar to bars (Petty Officer's Clubs, Officer's Clubs and CPO's Clubs)which seem to operate with out many problems. Maybe one should check with them and see how they operate.

Can you outline why it didn't work? My husband was an MP at Ft Drum from 1995-2001. Spinners and Penants were both open at the time and the base was an open base. I know many soldiers liked the convience of having the bars on post and not having to go to Watertown. Plus the cabs had a deal $5 anyplace on post, I think it was... could you please tell us why it didn't exactly work before?